Legislature(1995 - 1996)

10/24/1995 09:12 AM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                     WORK SESSION ON HB 341                                    
                        October 24, 1995                                       
                           9:12 a.m.                                           
                                                                               
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman                                         
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman                                      
 Representative Pete Kott                                                      
                                                                               
 Via Teleconference:                                                           
 Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chairman                                     
 Representative Alan Austerman                                                 
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 Representative John Davies                                                    
 Representative Eileen MacLean                                                 
 Representative Irene Nicholia                                                 
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 * HB 341: "An Act establishing a tax court to consider and                    
           determine certain taxes and penalties due and collateral            
           matters, and amending provisions relating to taxpayer               
           challenges to the assessment, levy, and collection of               
           taxes by the state; and providing for an effective date."           
                                                                               
           HEARD AND HELD                                                      
                                                                               
 (* First public hearing)                                                      
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 JEFF LOGAN                                                                    
 Legislative Assistant                                                         
 House Resources Committee                                                     
 State Capitol, Room 24                                                        
 Juneau, AK  99811                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4931                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided sectional analysis HB 341.                      
                                                                               
 STEVE MAHONEY                                                                 
 Tax Committee Representative                                                  
 Alaska Oil & Gas Association                                                  
 700 G Street                                                                  
 Anchorage, AK  99501                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 265-6527                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  AOGA supports reform.                                    
 BERNIE SMITH                                                                  
 Tesoro Alaska Petroleum                                                       
 P. O. Box 3369                                                                
 Kenai, AK  99611                                                              
 Telephone: (907) 776-8191                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports HB 341                                          
                                                                               
 DEBORAH VOGT                                                                  
 Deputy Commissioner                                                           
 Department of Revenue                                                         
 P. O. Box 110400                                                              
 Juneau, AK  99811-0400                                                        
 Telephone: (907) 465-2300                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Department to introduce legislation.                     
                                                                               
 CHRIS CHRISTENSEN                                                             
 Staff Counsel                                                                 
 Alaska Court System                                                           
 303 K Street                                                                  
 Anchorage, AK  99501                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 264-8228                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  The supreme court opposes the creation of a              
 limited jurisdiction specialty court.                                         
                                                                               
 KEVIN A. TABLER                                                               
 Land Manager                                                                  
 UNOCAL                                                                        
 P. O. Box 196247                                                              
 Anchorage, AK  99519                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 263-7600                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports HB 341                                          
                                                                               
 HAK DICKENSON                                                                 
 General Tax Counsel                                                           
 Marathon Oil Company                                                          
 5555 San Felipe                                                               
 Houston, TX  77056                                                            
 Telephone: (713) 296-2023                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports HB 341                                          
                                                                               
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
                                                                               
 HB 341                                                                      
 SHORT TITLE: ALASKA TAX COURT                                                 
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) GREEN                                           
                                                                               
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                      
 05/09/95      2042    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 05/09/95      2042    (H)   RES, JUD, FINANCE                                 
 10/24/95              (H)   RES AT 09:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO                     
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 95-71, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 040                                                                    
 HB 341 - ALASKA TAX COURT                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN opens the meeting and discusses a special                  
 session called by former Governor Walter Hickel to consider former            
 Senate Bill 377 relating to oil industry taxes.  After the special            
 session, CHAIRMAN GREEN states that he felt the state of Alaska               
 does not treat its taxpayers fairly; not because of what the state            
 asks them to pay but rather that the system seems divergent in view           
 and when assessed and contested, the state assumes the role of                
 prosecutor, judge and expediter.  One agency, he said, assesses the           
 tax and then, if appealed, the process requires that that same                
 agency decides if the assessment is fair or unfair.  If the                   
 taxpayer continues to appeal the assessment through the                       
 Administration on to the court, the judge and the court then decide           
 the case on a brief written by the agency.  HB 341, he states, was            
 introduced as an option to the present system.  As prime sponsor of           
 HB 341, CHAIRMAN GREEN, says he hopes to end up with legislation              
 that is workable, fair, and if not more precise, legislation that             
 both the state and industry can gain from.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 208                                                                    
                                                                               
 JEFF LOGAN, staff to Repesentative Green, provides a sectional                
 analysis of HB 341:                                                           
                                                                               
 SECTION 1. establishes a tax court as a one-judge trial court.                
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.020 allows the tax court to hear all cases involving            
 AS 43.19, the multi-state tax compact; AS 43.20, the Alaska net               
 income tax act; AS 43.21, the oil and gas corporate income tax; AS            
 43.55, the oil and gas production tax; AS 43.65, the mining license           
 tax; and AS 43.75, the fisheries tax.  (2) allows claims resulting            
 from all the above laws to be heard in the small claims division              
 (established further in bill). (3) allows the court to decide                 
 whether a proposed tax regulation is valid and gives the tax court            
 the same powers of the superior court in these matters.                       
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.030 establishes that the venue where cases will be              
 heard will be set by the supreme court.                                       
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.040 sets out the reasons why the venue can be                   
 changed.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.050 establishes when the tax court will be open for             
 business.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.060 states that the court can adjourn itself and call           
 itself back into session.  Adjournment does not prevent the court             
 from sitting in at any time.                                                  
 Section 22.12.070 establishes how official court documents will be            
 processed.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.080 establishes qualifications for tax court judges             
 and prohibits a person who has in the past four years been employed           
 by the departments of law and revenue from serving as a tax court             
 judge.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.090 directs the governor to fill a vacancy within 45            
 days of receiving nominations from the judicial council.  (b)                 
 establishes that a vacancy occurs upon death or resignation or                
 ninety days after an election if a judge is not retained by the               
 voters.                                                                       
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.100 requires the tax court judge to take the oath of            
 office.                                                                       
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.110 states that the tax court judge is subject to               
 approval or rejection by the voters and that the judicial council             
 must conduct an evaluation of the judge before the election and               
 make the results of that evaluation public.                                   
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.120 allows the tax court judge to be impeached by the           
 legislature for malfeasance or misfeasance and how the impeachment            
 will be conducted.                                                            
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.130 restricts the tax court judge from practicing law           
 or engaging in any activity for compensation if that conduct would            
 interfere with his/her duties.  (b) disqualifies the judge from the           
 bench if they file for public office except as a delegate  for a              
 constitutional convention.                                                    
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.140 establishes the same salary for the tax court               
 judge as for the superior court which is a range 28E, a monthly               
 salary of $7,667.00.  (b) requires judges to certify that they do             
 not have decisions more than six months outstanding before they are           
 paid.  The court system already imposes this rule on itself.  (c)             
 allows for geographic cost-of-living adjustments.                             
                                                                               
 Article 2. Section 22.12.200 provides that the supreme court may              
 adopt rules for taking an appeal to the tax court.                            
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.210 establishes that taxpayers can be tried de novo.            
 (b) states that only those issues raised in the Department of                 
 Revenue administrative proceedings can be raised in court.                    
 However, if the court determines that other matters are important             
 to the case it can be remanded back to the department.                        
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.220 establishes the burden of proof to be either                
 preponderance of the evidence, which is the usual civil trial                 
 burden of proof.                                                              
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.230 establishes hearings before the tax court as                
 public hearings and allows for confidential information to be                 
 protected.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.240 requires the tax court to issue decisions in                
 writing.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.250 allows the court to appoint a panel of masters              
 (three individuals) to collect and analyze technical information              
 and prepare decisions subject to the judge's adoption.                        
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.260 allows the court to publish tax court decisions.            
                                                                               
 Article 3.  Section 22.12.300 establishes a small claims division             
 within the tax court.                                                         
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.310 sets $15,000 as the threshold under which a small           
 claim may be filed.                                                           
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.320 establishes the procedure for filing a small                
 claim.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.330 requires the clerk of the tax court to notify the           
 Department of Revenue when a small claim has been filed.                      
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.340 allows the taxpayer to dismiss a small claims               
 case anytime before a judgement is entered; a dismissal is with               
 prejudiced and cannot be brought up again.                                    
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.350 establishes that small claims hearings are                  
 informal hearings.  The court may hear testimony and receive                  
 evidence and a party may appear before the court or be represented.           
                                                                               
 Section 22.12.360 states that a small claim judgement is conclusion           
 but is not a judicial precedent for other judicial matters.                   
                                                                               
 Number 418                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN continues with sectional analysis of HB 341.                        
                                                                               
 SECTION 2.  AS 15.15.030(10) describes the ballot for the retention           
 election of a tax court judge.                                                
                                                                               
 SECTION 3.  AS 15.35.092 states that the tax court judge will stand           
 for retention at first general election at his or her third year in           
 office.  If approved, the judge will stand before the voters every            
 six years thereafter.                                                         
                                                                               
 Section 15.35.094 prescribes that the tax court judge shall file a            
 declaration of candidacy by August 1 of the year of his election.             
                                                                               
 Section 15.35.096 sets the thirty dollar filing fee.                          
 Section 15.35.098 directs the director of elections to place the              
 name of a properly qualified tax court judge on the ballot for                
 election.                                                                     
                                                                               
 SECTION 4.  AS 15.58.050 states that the judicial council shall               
 file with the lieutenant governor's office by August 7 of the year            
 in which the general election is to be held with a statement                  
 including information on the tax court judge.                                 
                                                                               
 SECTION 5.  AS 15.58.060(a) establishes the $150.00 filing fee for            
 the tax court candidates to pay if they want to put something about           
 themselves in the voters pamphlet.                                            
                                                                               
 SECTION 6.  AS 22.05.010(a) asks the tax court for a list of courts           
 to which an appeal as a matter of right may be taken.                         
                                                                               
 SECTION 7.  AS 22.05.010(e) grants the right to appeal a Department           
 of Revenue decision to the tax court.                                         
                                                                               
 SECTION 8.  AS 22.05.100 states that if a tax court judge is not              
 retained by the voters, he/she cannot be appointed to fill a                  
 judicial vacancy for four years thereafter.                                   
                                                                               
 SECTION 9.  AS 22.07.060 does the same as section 8.                          
                                                                               
 SECTION 10. AS 22.10.020(d) superior court grants to the tax court            
 jurisdiction in all tax matters and appeals from the Department of            
 Revenue.                                                                      
                                                                               
 SECTION 11. AS 22.10.150 is the same as sections 8 and 9.                     
                                                                               
 SECTION 12. AS 22.15.195 is the same as section 11.                           
                                                                               
 SECTION 13. AS 22.20.010 adds definition of the term "judicial                
 office."                                                                      
                                                                               
 SECTION 14. AS 22.20.022(a) allows the chief justice to reassign a            
 case if a party or party's attorney feel they cannot get a fair               
 trial.                                                                        
                                                                               
 SECTION 15.  AS 22.20.040 exempts from small claims proceedings the           
 requirement that the U.S. government and corporations be                      
 represented by attorneys.                                                     
                                                                               
 SECTION 16. AS 22.20.110 states that the commissioner of public               
 safety shall serve all process issued by the tax court as it does             
 with the other courts currently.                                              
                                                                               
 SECTION 17. AS 22.25.010(g) adds tax court judge and definition of            
 judge for the purposes of the judicial retirement system and of the           
 standards of judicial conduct.                                                
                                                                               
 SECTION 18. AS 22.30.080(2) same as section 17.                               
                                                                               
 SECTION 19. AS 43.05.240(d) sets out the procedure to appeal a tax            
 decision by the Department of Revenue and what action the court               
 will take upon reaching a decision.                                           
                                                                               
 SECTION 20. AS 43.05.240 establishes the threshold for or defines             
 the final decision by the Department of Revenue for the purposes of           
 an appeal to the tax court.                                                   
                                                                               
 SECTION 21. AS 43.05.                                                         
 Section 43.05.242 requires a taxpayer who appeals a Department of             
 Revenue ruling to pay the undisputed portion of the levy plus any             
 penalty and interest and then to provide satisfactory evidence to             
 the tax court that the taxpayer is able to pay the balance.                   
                                                                               
 Section 43.05.244 allows the taxpayer or the Department of Revenue            
 to credit any overpayment made by the taxpayer against the                    
 taxpayers tax liability for the current or subsequent years.  Any             
 amount not refunded within three years shall be paid to the                   
 taxpayer with interest.                                                       
                                                                               
                                                                               
 SECTION 22. AS 44.62.300 allows an interested person to get an                
 opinion from the tax court as to the validity of the tax                      
 regulation.                                                                   
                                                                               
 SECTION 23. TRANSITION sets out that a revenue ruling appealed to             
 the superior court shall be heard by the tax court if the appeal              
 has not yet been filed with the supreme court.  (b) allows the tax            
 court to hear new evidence that was not presented during the                  
 revenue administrative hearing.  (c) allows a party whose case is             
 has been referred to the tax court to request that the case be                
 heard by a panel of masters.                                                  
                                                                               
 SECTION 24.  Effective date clause.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 585                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN concludes the sectional analysis.  CHAIRMAN GREEN asks              
 members if they have questions of staff.                                      
                                                                               
 Via teleconference from Kodiak, REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN asks            
 clarification regarding the repeal of a decision made by the                  
 Department of Revenue under this bill, does that appeal go the                
 superior court first or does it go straight to the tax court?                 
                                                                               
 MR. LOGAN responds that the appeal would go to the newly created              
 tax court.                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN comments that one of the reasons was the amount of             
 time used in the current process of step-wise procedure when in               
 most cases, if worthy of an argument, the case would end up in tax            
 court anyway.  This is a way to circumvent lost time; six months or           
 more is often required to work its way through the process.                   
                                                                               
 Number 647                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN introduces STEVE MAHONEY, Alaska Oil and Gas                   
 Association.  MR. MAHONEY reads his statement into the record:                
                                                                               
 Good Morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Resources                      
 Committee.  My name is STEVE MAHONEY.  As the authorized                      
 representative of the Tax Committee of the Alaska Oil and                     
 Gas Association.  I am here today to testify on behalf of                     
 AOGA regarding House Bill 341, which proposes to                              
 establish a special tax court at the Superior Court level                     
 within the Alaska Court System.  AOGA is a trade                              
 association whose 18 member companies account for the                         
 majority of oil and gas exploration, production,                              
 transportation, refining and marketing activities in                          
 Alaska.  We are grateful for this opportunity to offer                        
 our comments.                                                                 
                                                                               
 HB 341, presents some very critical issues.  To                              
 summarize, AOGA believes strongly that the present system                     
 of tax audits and appeals is flawed in two major ways,                        
 which I will describe in a moment.  AOGA is not prepared                      
 at this time to take a position on the bill, nor to                           
 recommend specific amendments.  But we do support reform                      
 and will continue to work on a definitive solution, and                       
 would like to set the stage with the following                                
 background.                                                                   
                                                                               
 Two major flaws in the present system are, first, that it                    
 does not allow for tax appeals to be decided by a truly                       
 impartial decision-maker, and second, that the burden of                      
 proof is not fairly allocated between the taxpayer and                        
 the Department of Revenue.                                                    
                                                                               
 In order to explain to the Committee exactly what these                      
 problems are and why they are problems, let me begin with                     
 a brief review of how the present system works in terms                       
 of who does what, and when.  As I do so, I would like to                      
 invite you to follow along by looking at the diagram                          
 illustrating the process, which appears on the page                           
 attached at the end of my written testimony.  What I'm                        
 going to do is start at the top of that diagram and work                      
 my way down through the items in bold print.                                  
                                                                               
 The process begins when the taxpayer files a tax return                      
 and pays the taxes due according to that return.  This                        
 means, in the case of production taxes, that we will file                     
 a tax return at the end of next month for the oil and gas                     
 we produce this month.  For the corporate state income                        
 tax, which is reported on an annual basis, we file our                        
 tax return for a given year in mid-October of the                             
 following year.  In other words, we will file our income                      
 tax return for 1995 in October of 1996.                                       
                                                                               
 Number 728                                                                    
                                                                               
 The filing of the tax return starts the clock running for                    
 the Department of Revenue (DOR) to audit the return.  The                     
 statute of limitations gives DOR three years from the                         
 filing of the return in which to complete the audit and                       
 make claims for additional tax, if any, which the auditor                     
 contends is owed.  This three-year period may be extended                     
 by mutual agreement of DOR and the taxpayer for however                       
 long and as many times as they may agree upon.  For oil                       
 and gas taxpayers, DOR ordinarily audits two or three                         
 years' worth of tax return at a time.  Usually the audit                      
 is not completed within three years from the filing of                        
 the earliest of the returns being audited, and DOR asks                       
 the taxpayer for one or more extensions for each audit.                       
 We taxpayers have cooperated by agreeing to at least one                      
 extension, and usually several.                                               
                                                                               
 Upon the completion of DOR's initial audit, the auditors                     
 almost always send a bill for more tax to the taxpayer.                       
 The technical name for such a bill is "assessment."  Very                     
 often the assessment or tax bill is issued to the                             
 taxpayer just before the extended limitations period                          
 expires.                                                                      
                                                                               
 When a taxpayer receives a bill for more tax, it can                         
 choose to do one of three things; it can pay the bill, it                     
 can file an appeal of part or all of the bill and ask for                     
 an informal conference with DOR, or it can file an appeal                     
 on part or all of the bill and ask for a formal hearing                       
 before a DOR hearing officer.  The taxpayer must make its                     
 choice within 60 days of receiving the bill for more tax.                     
 Within this same 60-day period the taxpayer must pay any                      
 undisputed portion of the bill.                                               
                                                                               
 Number 770                                                                    
                                                                               
 If the taxpayer pays the bill, the DOR auditors cannot                       
 make any further claims for more tax after the expiration                     
 of the statute of limitations.  Since the statute is so                       
 often on the verge of expiring when the tax bill is                           
 issued, choosing to pay the bill without contesting it                        
 effectively means that no further claims for additional                       
 taxes will be made for the tax periods covered by the                         
 bill.                                                                         
                                                                               
 On the other hand, if the taxpayer appeals part or all of                    
 the assessment, then DOR continues to issue new claims                        
 for additional taxes at any time before the appeal gets                       
 into court.                                                                   
                                                                               
 The original idea of the informal conference was to allow                    
 a taxpayer the opportunity to sit down with DOR auditors                      
 and their supervisors and informally discuss those                            
 matters which the taxpayer believes are due to simple                         
 mistakes or misunderstandings.  This option particularly                      
 makes sense when both sides are operating in good faith                       
 because it allows obvious or simple errors to be                              
 corrected without getting into the much more expensive                        
 procedures of the formal hearing.  The informal                               
 conference is conducted by a conference officer, who is                       
 usually a DOR employee in the "classified" service  -                         
 that is, he or she has civil service protection as well                       
 as union protection and is not accountable, in terms of                       
 getting fired, for lapses or errors in judgment.                              
                                                                               
 After the informal conference with the taxpayer, the                         
 conference officer issues a written conference decision                       
 making any corrections which he or she deems warranted in                     
 light of the information presented during the conference.                     
 There is no time limit on DOR either for holding an                           
 informal conference after one is requested, nor for                           
 issuing a conference decision after the conference is                         
 held.                                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 808                                                                    
                                                                               
 If the taxpayer disagrees with part or all of the                            
 informal conference decision, it may appeal the disputed                      
 portion(s) and must pay any undisputed portion of                             
 additional taxes which the conference officer finds to be                     
 owed.  The taxpayer has 30 days from the time of the                          
 conference decision in which to file its appeal and                           
 request a formal hearing and bypass the informal                              
 conference as its third option when a tax bill is issued,                     
 and it does so by requesting the formal hearing within 60                     
 days of getting the bill.                                                     
                                                                               
 The formal hearing by a hearing officer who is in the                        
 "partially exempt" service  -  that is, he or she serves                      
 at the pleasure of his or her immediate supervisor and                        
 the commissioner.                                                             
                                                                               
 The procedures for a formal hearing resemble those for a                     
 trial.  Both sides get to have legal "discovery"  -  that                     
 is, each side can ask the other about the evidence it has                     
 regarding the case.  Both parties can also file various                       
 motions before and after a trial.  The actual hearing                         
 itself is transcribed or recorded, and that as well as                        
 the testimony and evidence submitted at the hearing, plus                     
 all the briefs et cetera, becomes part of the formal                          
 record of the appeal.                                                         
                                                                               
 The hearing officer acts as a judge in the sense that he or                  
 she rules on the meaning of the applicable statutes and                       
 regulations.  The hearing officer acts as a jury in the sense                 
 of deciding which version of the facts is accurate when the                   
 two sides disagree about what actually happened.  After the                   
 hearing the hearing officer writes a formal hearing decision,                 
 making findings of fact as part of his or her role as a jury,                 
 and making conclusions of law in the role as a judge.                         
                                                                               
 The hearing officer submits his or her written decision                      
 to the commissioner or the commissioner's designee (often                     
 the deputy commissioner or the chief hearing officer) for                     
 review and approval.  The commissioner may direct the                         
 hearing officer to rewrite part or all of the decision,                       
 and in the past commissioners have often done so,                             
 sometimes going so far as to edit and rewrite the                             
 decision for the hearing officer.  Despite the                                
 commissioner's potential involvement in drafting the                          
 hearing decision, the DOR won't disclose what the                             
 involvement actually is.  This secretive nature of the                        
 process is especially troubling to taxpayers and colors                       
 perceptions about the fairness of the system.                                 
                                                                               
 Once the hearing officer's decision meets the                                
 commissioner's approval, it is issued to the taxpayer and                     
 becomes final.  As with the informal conference, there is                     
 no time limit on the department for holding a formal                          
 hearing after it has been requested, nor is there one for                     
 issuing the formal decision after the hearing is held.                        
 The taxpayer has 30 days from the issuance of the formal                      
 hearing decision in which to pay any uncontested portions                     
 of it and to appeal the rest to court.                                        
                                                                               
 Now this is the "direct route" for the tax audit and                         
 appeals process as shown in the diagram attached to my                        
 written testimony.  But it is DOR's position that the                         
 auditors may issue new claims for additional taxes at any                     
 time while the appeal over the original tax bill is still                     
 pending before the department.  Each time they issue a                        
 new tax bill, the taxpayer has to start at "step 1" of                        
 the appeals process for that new bill, no matter how far                      
 along in the process the original tax bill may be.  It is                     
 entirely possible that the same tax period will be                            
 audited and re-audited several times while the original                       
 appeal is pending, and indeed this has often been the                         
 experience of taxpayers.                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 888                                                                    
                                                                               
 So this is Alaska's present system of tax audits and                         
 appeals.  While cumbersome, time-consuming and expensive,                     
 the real problems are, as I mentioned at the outset, the                      
 lack of an impartial party to hear and decide tax                             
 disputes and an inappropriate allocation of the burden of                     
 proof between the Department of Revenue and the taxpayer.                     
 To some extent these two problems overlap one another.                        
                                                                               
 As you probably gathered from my description of the                          
 present process, the hearing officer plays a key role in                      
 that process.  The formal hearing is the counterpart of                       
 the trial in an ordinary lawsuit.  The hearing officer                        
 not only controls the schedule for the formal hearing,                        
 but he or she also rules on the various motions that the                      
 parties may file, controls which evidence will be                             
 admitted and which excluded, and, of course, acts as                          
 judge and jury in writing the hearing decision.                               
                                                                               
 On appeal to the courts, the hearing officer's factual                       
 findings in the hearing decision are given great                              
 deference.  To overturn such a finding, the taxpayer must                     
 show that it is "not supported by"...substantial evidence                     
 in light of the whole record "in the appeal."  This does                      
 not mean that most of the evidence has to support the                         
 hearing officer's findings, only that there is some                           
 credible evidence -some evidence of substance- which                          
 supports them.  In other words, where there is a dispute                      
 about what actually happened and both sides introduce                         
 credible but conflicting evidence about the events, the                       
 hearing officer can choose which witness or witnesses to                      
 believe and that choice will be upheld by the courts                          
 because it is supported by "substantial" evidence.                            
                                                                               
 Number 923                                                                    
                                                                               
 It is essential to Due Process to have an impartial                          
 person deciding which witnesses to believe, because which                     
 version of the facts is believed often determines the                         
 outcome of the case.  Let me give an example that will be                     
 more familiar to most people than some arcane tax issue.                      
 Suppose there is a traffic accident at an intersection                        
 with a traffic signal.  Each driver insists he had a                          
 green light, and they testify to that effect at trial.                        
 Suppose "Driver A" also has a witness who says that, even                     
 though he was 50 yards away from the corner, he saw that                      
 the light was green for "A" when "A" drove into the                           
 intersection.  Suppose that "Driver B" not only testifies                     
 that he had the green light, but he also brings in two                        
 witnesses who were standing right on the corner and agree                     
 that "B" had the green light.  Both versions can't be                         
 accurate, so which one do you believe?  Obviously, its                        
 going to make a difference which version you believe,                         
 since your decision will determine who wins and who                           
 loses.  Now suppose you are the jury and you decide, for                      
 whatever reason, to believe "A" and his single witness.                       
 If the courts apply the same standard to your verdict as                      
 a jury as they do in reviewing the findings of a DOR                          
 hearing officer, they will uphold your decision because                       
 there is evidence of substance supporting it even though                      
 "B" submitted more evidence by eyewitnesses who were both                     
 better located to see what happened.  In other words, "B"                     
 had more evidence and better evidence, but the verdict                        
 against him will stand.                                                       
                                                                               
 If we take this example and apply it to a tax appeal                         
 before a DOR hearing officer, a disputed fact issue is a                      
 bit like having the question to be this:  Did the                             
 taxpayer have the green light, or did the commissioner?                       
 The commissioner is ultimately responsible by law for                         
 collecting the taxes and pressing the state's claims for                      
 any unpaid taxes, and thus he or she has an interest in                       
 upholding the claims that he or she believes have merit.                      
 But in an impartial system, it would be the hearing                           
 officer, not the commissioner, who decides who "had the                       
 green light" on a disputed factual issue -DOR or the                          
 taxpayer.  In Alaska, however, the hearing officer is an                      
 "at will" employee working for the commissioner.  If a                        
 hearing officer rules against the department too often or                     
 on too big an issue, he or she can get into trouble and                       
 might even get fired.  So there is a constant and not too                     
 subtle pressure on a hearing officer to believe DOR's                         
 witnesses and disbelieve those of the taxpayer.  This is                      
 not impartiality.                                                             
                                                                               
 Actually, though, the situation is worse than that.  The                     
 commissioner can participate directly in the writing of                       
 the hearing decision, even though he or she was never                         
 present at the hearing, because the hearing decision                          
 cannot become final without the commissioner's approval.                      
 This means that a commissioner can instruct the hearing                       
 officer to rewrite critical parts of the decision so as                       
 to better support the auditor's tax claims, or may even                       
 rewrite those parts for the hearing officer, as                               
 commissioner's have done in the past.  In other words,                        
 the person with the greatest power to determine what the                      
 outcome is in an appeal over a disputed tax claim -                           
 namely, the Commissioner of Revenue- is the very person                       
 who has ultimate responsibility for making the claim in                       
 the first place.  The head prosecutor is therefore able                       
 to act as judge and jury in tax appeals.                                      
                                                                               
 Other states avoid this type of abuse in various ways.                       
 Those that use the same extremely high standard of                            
 deference to the hearing officer's finding as Alaska                          
 does, also have hearing officers with the greatest degree                     
 of independence from their tax commissioners.  Other                          
 states let the tax commissioner have more control over                        
 the hearing officers, but their courts make an                                
 independent decision about which witnesses to believe.                        
 Such independent judicial review is often through a so-                       
 called "trial de novo," which is legalese for a "new                          
 trial" that is held by the court.  Under either of these                      
 approaches taxpayers receive the impartial trier-of-fact                      
 which they are guaranteed under Due Process principles.                       
                                                                               
 Because this issue of a lack of an impartial tax tribunal                    
 in the Alaska system, there is an unfair and                                  
 inappropriate allocation of the burdens of proof between                      
 DOR and the taxpayer.  To a small degree this has already                     
 been discussed, in discussing what the taxpayer has to                        
 show to the courts in order to overturn an adverse                            
 finding by the hearing officer.  But there is another                         
 important aspect to the burden-of-proof issue.                                
                                                                               
 Number 1013                                                                   
                                                                               
 The longer the time that passes before a tax claim is                        
 made, the harder it is to find evidence to prove or                           
 disprove the claim.  Memories of witnesses fade,                              
 documents get harder to find, and perceptions of the                          
 world can and frequently do change with hindsight.  Yet                       
 the department does not have to prove its tax claims, no                      
 matter how long after the fact they are first raised.                         
 They are, in the words of AS 43.05.245:                                       
                                                                               
 "presumed sufficient for all legal purposes.  However,                       
 nothing prevents a taxpayer from presenting evidence or                       
 other information on an appeal under AS 43.05.240 in                          
 order to rebut the presumed sufficiency (of the                               
 department's claims")                                                         
                                                                               
 This statute means that the taxpayer always has the                          
 burden of "presenting evidence or other information" to                       
 show that the auditors are mistaken.  This burden still                       
 exists even if so much time has passed that all the                           
 evidence no longer exists.                                                    
                                                                               
 This is unfair.  One way to fix this would be to shift                       
 the burden of proof to DOR for unduly late claims.  This                      
 would restore fairness to those situations where the                          
 passage of time is so great that there is no evidence                         
 left one way or the other regarding the claim.                                
                                                                               
 There is also a complementary approach for making                            
 progress in these areas.  This is in providing taxpayers                      
 with greater clarity about exactly what their tax                             
 obligations are.  The clearer the rules are, the more                         
 likely it is that the correct amount of tax will be paid                      
 in the first place.  This means that the audit issues                         
 will be much smaller that they have been in terms of the                      
 dollars at stake.  Under Alaska's oil and gas tax rules                       
 in the past, enormous sums of money were riding on the                        
 outcome of the appeals for only a relative handful of                         
 taxpayers.  Any tax appeals system works better when                          
 smaller amounts are riding on the outcome of the appeals,                     
 and probably even the present system would have worked                        
 better if the stakes in each oil and gas case hadn't been                     
 so high.                                                                      
                                                                               
 AOGA is hopeful about making progress to improve the                         
 clarity of the tax rules.  As many of you may recall from                     
 previous state studies, uncertainty in the fiscal rules                       
 is a significant disadvantage that Alaska has in the                          
 worldwide competition to attract dollars for new capital                      
 investments here.                                                             
                                                                               
 AOGA is exploring ways to improve the present system.                        
 Some of them may be through new tax regulations.  Some                        
 may require legislation.  Clearly, we would prefer to                         
 come back to you with a consensus about any                                  
 legislation that may be needed.  But until we                                 
 complete our exploration of these possibilities, we                           
 are simply unable to recommend whether any changes                            
 to HB 341 are desirable, and if so, what those                                
 changes might be.                                                             
                                                                               
 We hope, Mr. Chairman, that you and the committee will                       
 understand our situation.  We are grateful for the                            
 support that has been shown by the fact that HB 341 has                       
 been introduced, and by the fact that this committee                          
 considers these matters important enough to take them up                      
 at this hearing.  We are counting on your continued                           
 support and on the good faith of everyone interested in                       
 these issues.  Working together, we can achieve a clear                       
 and sufficient system of taxation that no longer works to                     
 impede and discourage investment in Alaska.  And that                         
 will be to the benefit of us all -and an achievement in                       
 which we can all take pride and satisfaction.                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1080                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN asks members if they have questions of MR. MAHONEY.            
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN refers to AOGA's chart entitled Alaska's             
 Present Tax Audit and Appeals Process and asks whether the system             
 will change because the system is still required to get to tax                
 court.                                                                        
                                                                               
 MR. MAHONEY responds that the system of formal and informal                   
 hearings would be different in relation to (our) ability to go into           
 a tax court de novo. Our facts would be brought to light to an                
 impartial hearing officer, which would be the tax court judge.                
                                                                               
 Number 1113                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asks further clarification regarding the             
 appeals process asking if the bill still allows for the informal              
 conference.                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. MAHONEY replies that the informal conference is an option.                
 There are many issues with taxpayers that are resolved in informal            
 conference and we resolve some issues and not resolve others and go           
 further in the process if we choose.  If we resolve those issues we           
 would pay the tax due and any interest on top of that and then just           
 move forward with any issues that are unresolved.                             
                                                                               
 Number 1165                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asks why there is almost always additional                
 assessment after a taxpayer pays his bill and it is audited?  Is              
 there some major ambiguity on the clarity of the tax regulations?             
 He continues, asking the author of the bill if the bill is trying             
 to fix the symptom of the problem rather than addressing a lack of            
 clear tax policy?                                                             
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN says that HB 341 does not address trying to rewrite            
 Department of Revenue regulations.  He gives an example saying that           
 if there is any credibility in my disputing your tax, I am going to           
 take it to the highest possible decision maker.  That process of              
 making the final decision is what HB 341 addresses. Is this a fair            
 review or is it a stacked deck against those who appeal their                 
 taxes?                                                                        
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-71, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. MAHONEY discusses audit periods that may have additional                  
 assessments.  He continues, saying there are numerous items, issues           
 and areas that there can be disagreement on.  The taxes in Alaska             
 are self-assessed taxes.  The taxpayer reads the statute and                  
 regulations and makes a determination as to what they say and files           
 its taxes accordingly.  Any two people reading the length of                  
 documents that we have and the plethora of regulations that we have           
 will likely come out with different ideas of what they say and                
 that's basically what occurs in most of the assessments.                      
                                                                               
 Number 066                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. MAHONEY continues, saying there have been strides recently in             
 clarifying regulations with the department.  There are ongoing                
 discussions with the Administration as we speak and over the past             
 about the systems as they are and the regulations as they read.  We           
 are working towards clarity on those issues.  The major issue that            
 we see is that if an auditor comes up and says you owe more taxes;            
 the reasons that that assessment has been issued, the facts                   
 underlying why the assessment was issued, and why the disagreement            
 occurs: all the burden shifts to the taxpayer.  That's what this              
 bill is trying to clarify.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 147                                                                    
                                                                               
 BERNIE SMITH, Tesoro Alaska Petroleum Company, testifies in support           
 of HB 341 agreeing with testimony of the AOGA.  He feels a taxpayer           
 should be entitled to an independent and impartial review of any              
 tax dispute.  In Alaska, he says, this does not always happen for             
 just disputes arising from any tax administrated by the Department            
 of Revenue or any ad valorem tax.  Our concern is more than a just            
 a desire to have a tax court; we want an even and fair playing                
 field in Alaska tax matters.  HB 341 is also concerned with some of           
 the same issues.                                                              
                                                                               
 MR. SMITH says the current system infringes on the taxpayers due              
 process rights by requiring them to present their case to the Board           
 of Equalization.  He continues the discussion elaborating on policy           
 and procedures of the Board of Equalization saying the board is a             
 political body required by law to decide what evidence is allowed             
 into record.  The board also has arbitration rules that may effect            
 the trial record.  MR. SMITH gives an example: the Kenai board                
 allows a taxpayer only thirty minutes to present their case, he               
 says.  This kind of time limitation restricts the effects of the              
 taxpayers due process rights, and taxpayers must have enough time             
 to present their case, he states.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 280                                                                    
                                                                               
 DEBORAH VOGT, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Revenue, expresses           
 her appreciation for the opportunity to address the department's              
 dispute resolution system.   MS. VOGT relates that assertions made            
 by earlier speakers were not new to the department or even the past           
 three Administrations.  She informs the committee that the                    
 department recognizes that there may be reasons to change the                 
 system currently being used.  She said certainly one of the largest           
 reasons is the taxpayers perception.  There is a perception that              
 the dispute resolution process is unfairly biased against the                 
 taxpayer and that perception is not going to go away.  The other              
 reason that we might want to think about changing the system is               
 that it is difficult for the department.  The current                         
 Administration, she informs the committee, is committed to                    
 exploring alternatives for changing the system.                               
                                                                               
 MS. VOGT says, early in the present Administration, department                
 staff contacted every state in the United States to talk to them              
 about their dispute resolutions systems.  She relates that Alaska             
 is in the distinct minority among states in the way the system                
 works.  But, Alaska is not alone, there are several other states              
 that use the exact same process and it is a process that has been             
 upheld over and over by the courts.  It is a process used by many             
 federal agencies and in every court, to her knowledge, that has               
 addressed the issue of it is appropriate for the same agency to be            
 reviewing the facts and deciding the case, has upheld the process             
 as fair.                                                                      
                                                                               
 MS. VOGT continues her testimony -through a departmental contract             
 with the Department of Law, expert attorney Paul Frankel, Morrison            
 & Foerster, was retained.  Attorney Frankel had consulted with more           
 than twenty states on their tax resolution procedures and given               
 advice to those states.  The department hired Mr. Frankel to review           
 Alaska's system, laws and regulations.  Mr. Frankel recommends (1)            
 the system should be independent; (2) the taxpayer should be able             
 to have its factual determinations made in an evidentiary hearing             
 before it is required to pay the tax; and (3) the judge(s) in the             
 system should be tax professionals.                                           
                                                                               
 The Department of Revenue has requested permission from the                   
 governor to introduce a bill this session that addresses the                  
 department's dispute resolution system.  The main approach, she               
 says, would be to move the hearing function outside of the                    
 Department of Revenue, but leave it within the executive branch of            
 government.  She adds, not have it be a tax court but a hearing               
 system similar to what we have except divorced from the department,           
 and not reviewed by the commissioner and not subject to                       
 commissioner approval.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 480                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. VOGT responds to earlier remarks about the department saying              
 that the Department of Revenue has made dramatic progress from the            
 early years and is close to current with the oil industry on                  
 severance and corporate income taxes.  Referring to HB 341, she               
 suggests that a tax court that follows along after the unchanged              
 procedures to the department is not her idea of streamlining the              
 process.  Other particular elements to HB 341 she feels disturbing            
 are: (1) the fact that a judge can be preempted; (2) a problematic            
 part of the legislation is the qualifications of the tax judge; and           
 (3) it is not a good idea to create a judicial system to resolve              
 the problem.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 720                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN refers to Deborah Vogt testimony regarding moving              
 the hearings outside of the Department of Revenue.  MS. VOGT                  
 responds that the idea would be to have the evidentiary hearing,              
 the fact finding hearing, and the de novo proceeding outside the              
 department.                                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 816                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN converses with MS. VOGT concerning streamlining                
 dispute resolutions and fair and efficient procedures for getting             
 those tax disputes resolved.                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 868                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN asks MS. VOGT when the committee can expect to                 
 receive the new legislation from the department.  MS. VOGT replies            
 that the bill will be introduced this session.                                
                                                                               
 Number 898                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN says that one of the problems that has              
 been identified is that oil tankers go to all different locations             
 and different markets and have different prices.  Is there a simple           
 way to figure this out with an established price index for the day            
 or the week?  MS. VOGT responds that under the regulations, the               
 department now uses published prices for various markets for west             
 coast price, the gulf coast price and the mid-continent price.  But           
 you still have the problem of one taxpayer has, for this particular           
 month, more efficient tankers than others and the transportation              
 costs is still open to large controversies.  The discussion                   
 continues regarding price fluctuations in the marketplace.                    
                                                                               
 Number 1017                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT asks if the Administration has given any             
 regard to creating an independent entity such as the Department of            
 Labor Workers' Compensation Board.  In the discussion that ensued,            
 MS. VOGT stressed that tax professionals are the best qualified.              
                                                                               
 Number 1135                                                                   
                                                                               
 Responding to comments about the proposed legislation from the                
 chair, MS. VOGT clarifies that what the department is envisioning             
 is moving the formal hearing function outside the department and              
 making the informal conference mandatory instead of optional.                 
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-72, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 0000                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. VOGT continues her discussion on the proposed departmental                
 legislation saying she believes that by taking the hearing section            
 out of the Department of Revenue so that a fresh look was given to            
 the factual determinations; and then it went on its normal course             
 of appellate review through the superior court and supreme court,             
 it would shorten the process.                                                 
 Number 050                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHRIS CHRISTENSEN, Court Counsel, Alaska Court System, begins his             
 testimony remarking that as a general rule the supreme court takes            
 no position on legislation.  The only exception is legislation such           
 as HB 341 which directly effects the internal operation of the                
 judicial branch.  He advises the committee that the supreme court             
 opposes the creation of a limited jurisdiction specialty court.               
 This opposition is long-standing and relates to the concept of                
 specialty courts in general rather that a specific type of court              
 which is created by HB 341.  MR. CHRISTENSEN provides further                 
 background discussing examples of multi-judge specialty courts in             
 states with large populations such as New York.  Alaska does not              
 have that kind of case load, he said.  To give you an example, the            
 superior court judges here in Anchorage each carry a caseload of              
 about 800 cases.  While there are relatively few tax cases, some of           
 them might be very big, but they are relatively few.  My guess is,            
 MR. CHRISTENSEN continues, that a tax judge will probably spend a             
 tremendous amount of his or her time hearing other cases (divorces,           
 torts, contracts) because there really isn't the tax caseload to              
 keep such a judge busy.  He relates that there are very few judges            
 in Alaska specializing in tax cases.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 221                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. CHRISTENSEN, discusses examples of preempting certain judges              
 saying if the purpose of creating a one-judge tax court is to have            
 a specialist.  Somebody who is really an expert in tax law and then           
 having that judge preempted negates the whole purpose of creating             
 the tax court.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 285                                                                    
                                                                               
 KEVIN A. TABLER, Land Manager, UNOCAL, comments that his company              
 has a significant presence in Alaska having oil and gas operations            
 in Cook Inlet, an ammonia and urea plant in Kenai and other                   
 interests on the north slope.  MR. TABLER states his view of an               
 independent tax tribunal is a good idea and Union should support              
 this bill or other bills that offer this type of independent                  
 judicial review for tax matters.  Union Oil supports the basic                
 premise that a judicial tax forum not connected with a Department             
 of Revenue or a tax commissioner should be available in all states            
 and not just Alaska.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 395                                                                    
                                                                               
 HAK DICKENSON, General Tax Counsel, Marathon Oil Company, testifies           
 saying that Marathon has been in Alaska for a number of years.                
 Marathon is one of the first companies to come to Alaska.  Along              
 with UNOCAL, Marathon discovered the Kenai gas fields in 1959.  MR.           
 DICKENSON states he is encouraged that the Department of Revenue is           
 considering the introduction of a bill that will work toward                  
 resolving some of the process of hearing matters.                             
                                                                               
 MR. DICKENSON reiterates that the perception for the state of                 
 Alaska Department of Revenue, which is real, is that most people do           
 not think they can get a fair shake here.  Taxpayers simply want a            
 fair hearing on their disputes.  At the administrative hearing,               
 because the system is so tilted in favor of the Department of                 
 Revenue, it is virtually impossible for a taxpayer to win any                 
 meaningful issue.  At least any issue that involves any dollar                
 amount.                                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. DICKENSON emphasizes, "Why is the Alaska system so tilted in              
 favor of the Department of Revenue?"  First, he says, as you have             
 heard, the tax commissioner is both the auditor and hearing                   
 officers' supervisor.  He or she is the judge, jury and prosecutor.           
 The auditors ultimately report to the commissioner and the hearing            
 officer also reports to the commissioner.  What is missing in the             
 Alaska system is an effective procedure for checks and balances               
 between the audit process and the hearing system.  In the Alaska              
 hearing system, the commissioner who is sometimes a lawyer and                
 sometimes not finally decides whether he will accept a hearing                
 officer's recommendation, full or partial, or reject the hearing              
 officer's recommendation all together.                                        
                                                                               
 The hearing system in the state of Alaska is substantially flawed,            
 he exclaims.  It appears that Alaska is only one of four states               
 that does not have either an independent hearing officer or a trial           
 de novo.  "What can the legislature do to correct the system in               
 Alaska?"  "What can the legislature do to level the playing field?"           
 MR. DICKENSON continues saying that one remedy would be to create             
 a tax court, which HB 341 call for.  The Department of Revenue does           
 not need to be engaging in any over-zealous actions to collect                
 taxes nor is it necessary that the hearing procedure be rigged to             
 lopsidedly favor the tax commissioner.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 755                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. DICKENSON concludes his testimony quoting from the Internal               
 Revenue Service bulletin which describes their mission:  "The                 
 purpose of the Internal Revenue Service is to collect the proper              
 amount of tax revenue at the least cost; serve the public by                  
 continually improving the quality of our products and services; and           
 performed in a manner warranting the highest degree of public                 
 confidence in our integrity, efficiency and fairness."                        
                                                                               
 The Internal Revenue bulletin goes on to provide a  statement of              
 principles of the IRS Administration: ..."The function of the                 
 Internal Revenue Service is to administer the Internal Revenue                
 Code.  Tax policy for raising revenue is determined by Congress.              
 With this in mind, it is the duty of the Internal Revenue Service             
 to carry out that policy by correctly applying the laws enacted by            
 Congress.  To determine the reasonable meaning of the various code            
 provisions in light of the Congressional purpose in enacting them.            
 To perform this work in fair and partial manner with neither a                
 government nor a taxpayers point-of-view."  MR. DICKENSON                     
 encourages the Department of Revenue to adopt similar mission                 
 statements and principles as the IRS.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 850                                                                    
                                                                               
 The discussion continues between MR. DICKENSON and MS. VOGT                   
 regarding the proposal for an independent hearing officer within              
 the executive branch versus the creation of a tax court.                      
                                                                               
 Number 959                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN states that ordinary people placed in a                   
 position of making a judgement do not necessarily have to be                  
 experts on it.  The legislature and jury system are good examples,            
 he says.  There are lay jurors that know nothing about a situation.           
 It might be an equitable system to resolve these conflicts.                   
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 977                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT responds to the chair that most of our boards             
 and commissions do have lay people involved, but they also have               
 professionals from industry and areas that the board in addressing            
 on the board.  While the lay person perspective is a good approach,           
 we also have to have somebody more of an expert in that area.                 
                                                                               
 Number 998                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. VOGT informs the committee that she and Commissioner Condon               
 have looked at a mission statement for both of the tax divisions.             
 The IRS mission statement was included in that review along with              
 mission statements from other states.  MR. CHRISTENSEN interjects             
 that the department's mission statement is very similar to the IRS.           
                                                                               
 Number 1021                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN GREEN summarizes testimony at the hearing and says maybe             
 the final decision should be removed from the Department of Revenue           
 and there must be someway to streamline the whole process so that             
 we never again allow ourselves to be encumbered.  The chairman                
 states that the committee will take today's input, he encourages              
 additional input, and revise the bill to the point that it is a               
 workable bill.  If the governor, or the department through the                
 governor's office comes in with a different bill that does the same           
 thing, that's fine and I will drop off.  My concern is that we do             
 not let this issue go unresolved just because we want to presume it           
 will go away.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1065                                                                   
                                                                               
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 The meeting was adjourned at 11:17 a.m.                                       
                                                                               

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